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Unusual occurance, what's the BEST line to take.

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  • Unusual occurance, what's the BEST line to take.

    Well a small win for taking notes at the table last night- I managed to take down a hand to think about. For those of you that do take live notes- how many hands would you expect to note down in 6 hours of play- I wrote down 1, and maybe could have written another. Should I aim for any hand I play beyond a preflop bet/fold? Should I include bet/fold hands?

    Really not sure- anyway- to the hand.

    S 50k (effective was 25k)
    B 100/200
    P UTG+1
    H JJ

    All looking good- I have won a couple of big hands and basically doubled my stack in the early levels.

    I look down @JJ and raise to 500 (I would normally have made this 600 this deep, but I have 2 very bluffy, very aggro players off to my left who will call with almost any 2 cards- so since I am OOP against them I adjust my sizing slightly preflop).

    LJ calls (bluffy aggro #1)
    HJ calls (bluffy aggro #2)
    SB calls.

    The pot is 2200 and everything is very standard so far.

    Flop was A K 6 rainbow.

    SB leads out for 1100.

    What do I do here?

    SB is a young, new player- I have never played with him before, but appeared competent in his manner (I was listening to the webinar whilst playing last night). However he registered late, so he has only been at the table 5 minutes. His bet size of half pot suggested some degree of education in poker- even if only pressing the bet 1/2 pot button online because that was what everyone seemed to do. However leading out into 3 players, when you weren't the preflop aggressor, and the board hits my range so hard, seems foolish with whatever hand he has.

    To my initial thoughts, I felt this was a pretty obvious fold. JJ is a bluff catcher here, and this is a terrible spot for him to bluff. I feel like I am almost certainly behind. So I did fold (as did the other 2 players- so we will never know what he had).

    However I remember reading/watching something somewhere that said a lead like this is often fairly weak. Maybe he has something like a poor ace or king, and is betting to find out "where he's at". This got me thinking that should I turn my JJ into a bluff and 3 bet him? After all I can have AA/KK/AK, and he can't (maybe AK, but there are 2 blockers out there and he only called PF). However if he is new to the game, top pair or a pair of kings might feel like a big hand irrespective of kicker, and he might be reluctant to fold. There is also the possibility of calling and seeing if he shows weakness on a later street where I can take the hand away from him.

    I'm not unhappy with my fold- I don't think it's a bad play. But I'm not sure it was the best play.

    So- which option is the best?

    1) Just fold, you are behind and have 2 players still to act.
    2) 3 bet because he is likely to have a marginal hand.
    3) Call- we are probably behind right now, but we can re-evaluate on the turn.
    4) Something else...............

    JL- if you want to hire me to make interactive quizzes, just let me know and we will talk $!

  • #2
    I think this is an easy fold. A few reasons, in order of my thinking:

    1. As you say, his bet out with three players behind is really strong on that board. Any A or K from the remaining three gets a call, and the SB surely recognizes that.

    2. You still have two aggressive folks behind you. What if they three bet or even call? You are now playing a large pot out of position. A or K is well in their range.

    3. Even if a J comes on the turn for you, it fills up broadway for one of the aggressive guys if they stuck in with QT. A few other hands (QQ, TT) still can hurt you on the river, though you have draws to the boat or quads. Point being, a J improves you but it's not a clean card.

    i would say it is always worth considering different lines, but this is a tough spot to make a move. Better opportunities should come.


    • Andy Watson
      Andy Watson commented
      Editing a comment
      Just a quick comment on this point, if I think about continuing in the hand it's pretty much purely as a bluff, where I can push him off a hand later. I am not really considering the chances of hitting a set.

  • #3
    You're losing, peel 1 and hope to hit a set (so you can lose your stack to a gutshot). Fold the Turn bet.


    • #4
      It isn't fun but this is an easy fold, don't over think it.


      • Andy Watson
        Andy Watson commented
        Editing a comment
        I have a feeling this is the right answer!

    • #5
      I would fold and move on.
      Having said that, I am very curious as to why the small blind would lead out like this. Can anyone put him on a possible hand or narrow his range down to a small number of possible hands?. I have seen inexperienced players do this all the time in the game I play in . As they gain experience they do it less often. I had a guy donk into me a few nights ago on a flop with an Ace and two of a suit. He bet less than1/4 pot. I felt I had to raise him with my strong hand. He folded and laughingly said that he only bet to find out where he was.
      It got me thinking that maybe his play has some bit of merit. If I had JJ , I would call his small bet but wouldn't be that happy.


      • Andy Watson
        Andy Watson commented
        Editing a comment
        This is exactly the scenario I was thinking of. I don't have the strong hand you did- and Vs bet size was 1/2 pot- but was he making a similar play?

        On the opposite side of the coin, should you have flatted? Although he probably would have shut down on a call too.

    • #6
      Given SB's action pre flop and flop I put him on this range AX suited, AT, AJ, AQ, A6 suited (assuming he is a standard player).

      If you were just heads up with SB I would re-raise to 2700 - that would get him to fold much of this range.

      The problem is the other two players - their range is likely pretty wide and could include some 2 pair hands like A 6 or K 6 or top pair AX hands that may not fold to your raise but most of their range you are ahead or at least will give them the impression you are ahead (e.g. they have KX hands). So unless one of the other 2 players hit 2 pair I think it's likely that a flop raise to 2700 will also get them to fold.

      For a flop raise to work you would need the 3 opponents to fold about 45% of the time. Given that your stack is pretty deep I would make the flop raise.

      If one or more opponents calls the flop raise then I'd likely give up on the hand.


      • #7
        easy fold , not because of sb lead , is because behind still got two player , you do not know behind player action will be, sb action look very polarize to me is either a very weak hand or hand stronger then 2 pair. if its an heads up i will peel the flop and see his turn action , but if i have air myself i will raise back , haha i am playing in an very aggressive way most of the time in heads up, but with 2 player behind you your JJ is just a bluff catcher, and you have to think is he capable bluffing in this spot


        • #8
          Thanks guys.

          I had a pretty fair idea my fold was correct, but I was just thinking about the hand, and what (if anything) I could have done about it.