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Should i 3 bet with 78s, 67s, 79s when i have very low Fold equity preflop?

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  • Should i 3 bet with 78s, 67s, 79s when i have very low Fold equity preflop?

    My new Topic i wanted to ask the regular over here, if i am playing in a game that has almost 0 % fold equity preflop in a single raise pot , should i open mid suited connector and why?
    should i 3 bet with mid suited connector if fold equity is low and reason why

    I like to work my game with fold equity , but against low stake cash game that i play in , i have almost 0%- 1% fold equity preflop (we dont say the extreme of shoving 100 to 200 bb preflop then i will have 95% fold equity preflop), and maybe 20% fold equity for a 3 bet preflop

    what will you guys range suggestion ? and why

    premium hand dont need much explain of course is for value, we shall take about hand like mid suited connector and maybe blocker hand like A2s- A5s.

  • #2
    It depends on a few variables.

    1) there will always be some fold equity, even if it is low there will be some. But the later the position, obviously the higher the fold equity because there are the certain groups of hands that almost no one will ever play for a raise, mostly the bottom 30% of hands. The typical very loose passive player might hit 50% hands.

    2) If you get callers, how likely is it going to be more than 2 callers? How often will it get you heads up? Having the initiative in a to or three player pot has value in itself.

    3) If you hit a great flop, how much easier will it be to stack one of the bad opponents when you raise versus when you call.

    4) Is there a better player in position you would rather not have in this hand?

    5) Is the BB a good player who you would rather have fold?

    6) Will this help you set the price to see a flop? for instance, in these $1/$2 games, if someone picks up a hand like AQ/99 in a pot after you limp in they will raise it to something like $15, but will most like just call instead if you raise to $6 before they act.

    I tend to open those hands for 3x and when deep stacked. I don't typically re-raise with these hands when deep stacked as they will tend to play pretty good by calling in position against a raise. If the game is really loose, I realize that most of the time when I raise I will end up folding post flop, but by raising the pot, the one time I smash the board, it makes it easier to stack one of the bad players who can't fold top pair when stacks go in.

    Also, by raising those hands it makes you a more difficult opponent to play against. First by having greater board coverage on the flop, with a range that contains hands like that, your opponents can't look at the board and assume you missed when the board comes 8 high.

    And finally, if your opponents know you play these hands for a raise, you will get more action with AA/KK. This is part of the metagame of poker. Raising 65s won't make profits for you directly, but it creates an image that will make other situations more profitable. My goal with these is to take shots and maybe win a little with it here and there, get paid off big every once in a while, but mostly keep it break even or slightly better, which getting more action on my hands that will make more money.

    If over the course of a 10,000 hands I may have 76s about 500 times with maybe a typical expectation of -0.1 BB per hand. I will have AA about the same amount with a typical expectation of about 3 bbs per hand. If I maintain the smae expectation with 76s by playing it more often and it raises the expectation of AA to 3.2 BBs per hand I have increased my profits.

    All in all, I don't raise these expecting to steal the pot preflop. That is not my goal. I don't care if I get called. I cherish it because I know that most of my opponents get worse the deeper they get into a hand. So if they want to go deeper into the hand with me, that's great. Overall in the long run, their mistakes will get more costly for them.

    I raise the pot to take the initiative with a chance to win a bigger pot post flop.
    Last edited by jjpregler; 03-10-2017, 11:53 AM.

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    • #3
      Hi JJpregler, Thanks for your feedback,

      regarding
      Q1) i am playing in a 2/2 game while the average stack is 300 - 500 bb or more sometime by raising to 3 bb is 101% no fold equty to them , they dont see it as a money , if they like the hand K8s or K2 if they limp and i raise a single raise they will call means they will call, i have tried even i raise to un realistic size they are still calling in a single raise , when they limp they are protecting their hand almost 100% i am the only few ,that will limp fold 40% of my hand , they will always laught at me for no protecting my limp, in my mind i think they are idiot to flat with so many hands that dont have proper odds to do the calling.

      Q2) f i have 4 caller infront of me limp and i raise to 3 bb that i dont , i will raise to min pot size $15 and i can be quite sure i will have a 6-7 way muti way pot to the flop. and for your info their standard open raise is $15. like i have share in other previous post , even i am in UTG , i open raise to $25 is common to see 3 - 5 caller behind me tailgating the aggressor, no one 3 bet , they will just flat to hopefully flop something good. or to play tricky with me in position . only in a 3 bet pot i can get into headsup or 3 way pot. and my 3 bet size is not consider small.

      Q3) i myself prefer headup pot then muti way pot , because i can easily bluff and win the pot. while to flop well, its easier to get pay off in a muti way pot someone will have some hand to call my bet and raise. in a raise pot is easy to get our stack in as the pot grow bigger , but like i say in mutiway pot there will always be someone have somehand dont know why can call off my hand. especially draw.

      Q4) if i am flatting or limping , i sometime also playing their donkey game like set mine and see who can flop better, but the difference between me and them i make sure i have the proper odds , if i am flatting a $10 raise with mid suited connector, i am thinking and make sure i can min win back at least $200-$250 in this round if i flop something good. so it doesnt matter if any good player behind me will flat in , cos when i decided to call i am decided to leave my luck to god to see i can flop well anot. in a muti way pot we dont flop well there is not much we can do. i wil be concern if a good player that will 3 bet behind me then i will consider 3 bet myself or fold. i often raise i seldom flat, i only flat when the odds is very good.

      Q6) yes definitely it will help to set the price, the player over there will name it blocker raise , i am the only one over in the table will open $6 -$12, btw i have open all sort of size before i even try a 2.5bb open before as i try some smallball approach , i have try open from so call min raise to large raise , and the table over there dont like to 3 bet , and they rarely 3 bet. so by first to open and take the initiative will often able manage to set the price.

      Hi JJpregler, can a do a summary that say you will open with suited connector to more of balance out your range to keep opponent guessing then to get a fold or value.?

      there is this poker fundamental teaching, when we bet /raise we want to get value or bluff, to get worst hand to call or better hand to fold, by opening with 56s and i dont get better hand to fold. and not much worst hand behind 56s, even K4s is not really behind .

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      • #4
        Q1)/Q2) My response was in conjunction to open raising. that deep, I would tend to call behind if there are already limpers in the pot with these hands. In these games, once someone already limps in, they are almost never folding to standard sized raise. However, when I am first in I raise to "try" to win the pot now or on the after the flop. My raise preflop is only the first part of my attempt to win with aggression, I continue trying to win after the flop when I miss. Being the first player to enter the pot is much different than having limpers.

        Q3) Typically yes, but with suited connectors or small pairs, the opposite is true. With these hands, you don't mind multi-way pots, because these are the hands that make big hands more often and can play win big pots. If I had a hand like AK/AQ/ or big pair, yes you want a heads up or at the most 3 way pot.

        Q4) Flatting and playing hit or miss poker with these hands is perfectly acceptable. The difference is that the smart players choose the right hands to do it with and not hands like K4o like the loose passive donkeys.

        Q5) You skipped Q5. Maybe that is top secret, I don't know, but purple. Yes purple is my answer.

        Q6) With stacks this deep, I typically don't play small ball. It won't work with deep stacks in lower stakes games. I open for 3x when I am first in, or 3x + 1 for each limper if not first in.

        Yes, when we bet we want to either be called by worse or get better hands to fold, but when I am first in and open 65s, I am not trying to win the pot preflop. If I do, that's great too. I want to win the pot post flop.

        There is another adage in poker, Real poker starts on the turn. What this means is the preflop and flop play is almost robotic, but the hard thinking and tough decisions start on the turn. This is where most of the amateurs will make errors. I want to play pots to the turn with amateur players then exploit their errors on the turn and river.
        Last edited by jjpregler; 03-11-2017, 07:04 AM.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by jjpregler View Post

          Q5) You skipped Q5. Maybe that is top secret, I don't know, but purple. Yes purple is my answer.
          Have you been at those protein shakes again?!

          You´ll have to give me the recipe!

          Another interesting post.

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          • #6
            Paul, I think maybe we are going around in circles. If you post some actual hands and playing conditions maybe somebody can be of more specific help.

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            • #7
              Hi Patrick I still owe you my range construction , in previous post , i will be posting there soon , i just want to clear my mind when we 3 bet with mid suited connector we want player call or fold , if we not player not folding do we really still want to 3 bet with suited connector, or should we call. in short should we 3 bet light when we know villain not folding

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              • #8
                Paul, if you really have no fold equity, then I think you should limp along and play donkfest with the rest of them unless in late position. Then I'm raising a ton to balance my LP raising range.
                But there is something called the "threshold of pain" if you raise enough. You just have to find where it lies for your game and which particular players. It is there even if you don't think so, but maybe it is high enough that it bloats the pots too much for your comfort level, which is fine.
                I agree with JJ about over limping but I don't see a lot of 3x oprs in live, more of an online sizing.
                Maybe it just comes to this: If you limp all your speculative hands and raise only your 10% hands, are they still giving you action? Not just on the flop but do they freeze on the turn if you raised pre but they're stickier if you limp pre. That's horribly exploitable but if that's how they play, just print the money! And if they do catch on and start respecting your raises more somehow, then you can open your raising ranges more. Just remember, some will catch on, others will never have a clue.

                "You can lead a horse to water, but only a donkey will follow you to the river"

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                • #9
                  Yes Qtunneier, i understand and know what you mean by playing donkfest with them , but maybe this is my own leak , because i think i am a better player i dont like and dont want to play donkfest with them.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Paul Khoo View Post
                    Yes Qtunneier, i understand and know what you mean by playing donkfest with them , but maybe this is my own leak , because i think i am a better player i dont like and dont want to play donkfest with them.
                    Yes, but in some cases, like calling with 65s and 22, is the proper way to exploit the donkfest calling stations.

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                    • #11
                      Paul, it's not donkfest you're aiming for (most of us hate that). Donkfest is by it's very nature a preflop thing. We all suck and variance is King in a donkfest. What you're counting on are your POST-flop skills. Figure out which oppenents play fit or fold and which ones are loose passive calling stations and who turns aggrotard on certain board types and that's when your poker game starts, where most of theirs stops. Donkfests can be very frustrating but extremely profitable.

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